started by Ray-Barone 5 yrs ago
IIT-K~student~commits~suicide
"According to Shailesh’s batchmates, he had failed in advanced thermodynamics for third time in a row and had shared his failure and acute distress with his classmates. "On Tuesday, he came to know about his failure and was quite depressed. Today he committed suicide after having lunch with us," said a student, who was with Shailesh minutes before he ended his life.
"Though we can’t draw any conclusion, it is true that he had done badly in two courses. This might be the reason behind the incident," said dean of students affairs (DOSA) Prawaal Sinha. Sinha said that the body had been sent for postmortem and parents of the deceased had been informed about the incident.
What is more interesting in that article is the claim that 5 students have committed suicide at IITK since 1981.What crap! Clearly they are ignoring some deaths in these 25 years as well as all those suicide attempts that happen every year. At least I am aware of 6 suicide cases that happened during my time in the early 90s.
IIT-Kanpur probably has the highest academic pressure - their grading system is also very harsh (A-10, B-8, C-6, D-4 and F-0) - so if you drop one grade below, your CPI (CGPA at IITM) gets a big hit. And students who get mostly D's and F's would get into academic probabation - they are given a reduced workload and are constantly monitored - many students consider being on AP as a humiliation and an insult to their intelligence.
IIT Kanpur is also famous for their quizzes and tests - unlike in IIT Madras (and maybe other IITs) IIT Kanpur profs take snap quizzes and surprise quizzes, regular quizzes during the course. This is in addition to the mid-sem tests. The mid-sem tests are usually the days when you will find the hostel atmosphere highly charged.
Students burn the midnight oil and are seen scampering around to get doubts cleared or questions answered by the fundus of the class. All this is in addition to assignments, take home tests and the weird end sem exams where profs pride in giving timeless exams, take home exams, or exams where the question paper is given to the students a day before the actual test. You will have to work the problems out before coming to the test. And due to competition, not much gets shared.
Thermodynamics - ah! I remember - this is a course during the first couple of semesters and (not sure if it is mandatory for Chemca) but not a useful course for students in my program. We had to go thru it and the profs usually rush thru the syllabus. There were usually 100 students in a class and the prof cannot provide individual attention.
Assignments were evaluated by the Tutorial assistants and sometimes even the test papers. Problems were also solved by these guys in the class once a week. The prof would only teach. The objective for us would be to scrape thru - and if lucky or really good - to get a good grade.The system at IITK is very unforgiving. And it can take a toll on the students who are either weak or who do not work hard. And professors are also known to hand out F-ka without getting affected by student sentiments.Thought in all these years, things would have changed. No - it does not seem to have.
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batataburger posted Re:
Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
: IIT Kanpur is also famous for their quizzes and tests - unlike in IIT Madras (and maybe other IITs) IIT Kanpur profs take snap quizzes and surprise quizzes, regular quizzes during the course. This is in addition to the mid-sem tests. The mid-sem tests are usually the days when you will find the hostel atmosphere highly charged. Students burn the midnight oil and are seen scampering around to get doubts cleared or questions answered by the fundus of the class.Surprise quizes, assignments and mid-sems are good as the grading gets distributed and doing badly in any particular mid-sem or quizes doesn't hurt to the final grades for the semester.
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lucent posted
Re: [drop the K] Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
I agree that the grading system at IITs needs an overhaul.
On one extreme, you have elite Asian schools where teachers set their own expectations and take pride in discrimination (as in separating the class into different grade buckets as finely as possible). Some even adopt a sadist attitude: “To get a B (average grade) in my class, you have to be really, really good.” Once a student drops the ball, there is little incentive to improve as the system is very unforgiving.
On the other extreme, you have elite American schools where administrators react to student expectations and encourage grade inflation. Many teachers view grading as a popularity contest – the more As and A+s you dole out, the better your ratings will be. Students have little incentive to perform. (See a href= "http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i30/30b02401.htm"Grade Inflation: It's Time to Face the Facts/a, by Harvey C. Mansfield, Professor, Harvard University)
Common sense suggests that there should be a happy middle – a system where grades faithfully reflect the student’s standing, but in a manner that isn’t cruel or dehumanizing. Another alternative is to not release the grades to external parties (employers, graduate schools) and rely on a three-tier system (Divisions I, II and III). Regardless of what the system is, it should motivate the students to perform throughout their time in college.
Other comments:
1. Drop the K. All IITs (at least the original ones: KGP, B, M, D & K) have their share of sadist profs, tough courses, and tough tests. Nothing unique about K. :)
2. What gave you the idea that being on AP is humiliation for many students? I am sure there are a few who get depressed, but most get used to it. Some even celebrate it. Many underperformers (five and six pointers) become successful in life. They often redeem themselves at IIMs or US schools and take up highflying jobs. Some nine pointers on the other hand continue to slog through their careers and become cogs in a wheel.
3. It is unusual to fail a course thrice. If it is a sadist prof, the entire class underperforms and many fail. However, if one person is failing multiple times, there is something wrong with his approach.
4. As for people committing suicides, it would be interesting to find out how many of them were from reserved categories. Sometimes those outliers can distort the numbers. Nevertheless, one has to realize that no system is perfect, and there will always be people who buckle under pressure.
Ray-Barone posted
Re: [drop the K] Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
I agree - heard of horror stories at IITM Electrical dept. as well.But in general I found IITM to be much more relaxed than IITK. Also, the grading of S (10),A (9),B (8),C (7),D (6),E (5),U really helped reduce the stress. Especially if you aim at more than 9/10.: 1. Drop the K. All IITs (at least the original ones: KGP, B, M, D & K) have their share of sadist profs, tough courses, and tough tests. Nothing unique about K. :)Not that IITK is unique - just that in my experience, IITK has a horrible academic env. It can do only two extremes - motivaate to a very big high - or can kill any aspiration of learning.And definitely, IITK is not a place where you can enjoy your education. Too much stress. Maybe this bit is true of all IITs.:
2. What gave you the idea that being on AP is humiliation for many students? I am sure there are a few who get depressed, but most get used to it. Some even celebrate it. Many underperformers (five and six pointers) become successful in life. They often redeem themselves at IIMs or US schools and take up highflying jobs. Some nine pointers on the other hand continue to slog through their careers and become cogs in a wheel. Oh - guys who enjoyed AP were those who had given up. Those who aspired for higher education, used to get overly stressed up - and AP would also mean an additional semester or two. MAkes it worse.: 3. It is unusual to fail a course thrice. If it is a sadist prof, the entire class underperforms and many fail. However, if one person is failing multiple times, there is something wrong with his approach. I agree. Not sure about the quota part - I have know one guy who was not from quota but who failed in Operations Research (of all papers) many many times before he finally cleared it because it was handled by a different prof. :): 4. As for people committing suicides, it would be interesting to find out how many of them were from reserved categories. Sometimes those outliers can distort the numbers. Nevertheless, one has to realize that no system is perfect, and there will always be people who buckle under pressure. The cases I know - none were from reserved category.
batataburger posted
Re: [drop the K] Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
:I agree that the grading system at IITs needs an overhaul. On one extreme, you have elite Asian schools where teachers set their own expectations and take pride in discrimination (as in separating the class into different grade buckets as finely as possible). Some even adopt a sadist attitude: “To get a B (average grade) in my class, you have to be really, really good.” Once a student drops the ball, there is little incentive to improve as the system is very unforgiving.At least in the Indian educational settings you see two kinds of teachers. One who test students for what they don't or may not know, by trying to give toughest problems and then those who test students for what they are suppose to know. It is the latter approach that creates healthy academic environment. : 4. As for people committing suicides, it would be interesting to find out how many of them were from reserved categories. Sometimes those outliers can distort the numbers. Nevertheless, one has to realize that no system is perfect, and there will always be people who buckle under pressure. *Laughing*. A person's ability to withstand setbacks/failures has very little to do with their caste. Sucide and sucide attempts on IIT campus or any other elite campuses, are known to happen almost every year. I am sure even on lesser campuses they happen, however it is easier to see why after getting selected to an elite institute, a failure can break self esteem leading to sucide or attempts.
IIT-K~student~commits~suicide
"According to Shailesh’s batchmates, he had failed in advanced thermodynamics for third time in a row and had shared his failure and acute distress with his classmates. "On Tuesday, he came to know about his failure and was quite depressed. Today he committed suicide after having lunch with us," said a student, who was with Shailesh minutes before he ended his life.
"Though we can’t draw any conclusion, it is true that he had done badly in two courses. This might be the reason behind the incident," said dean of students affairs (DOSA) Prawaal Sinha. Sinha said that the body had been sent for postmortem and parents of the deceased had been informed about the incident.
What is more interesting in that article is the claim that 5 students have committed suicide at IITK since 1981.What crap! Clearly they are ignoring some deaths in these 25 years as well as all those suicide attempts that happen every year. At least I am aware of 6 suicide cases that happened during my time in the early 90s.
IIT-Kanpur probably has the highest academic pressure - their grading system is also very harsh (A-10, B-8, C-6, D-4 and F-0) - so if you drop one grade below, your CPI (CGPA at IITM) gets a big hit. And students who get mostly D's and F's would get into academic probabation - they are given a reduced workload and are constantly monitored - many students consider being on AP as a humiliation and an insult to their intelligence.
IIT Kanpur is also famous for their quizzes and tests - unlike in IIT Madras (and maybe other IITs) IIT Kanpur profs take snap quizzes and surprise quizzes, regular quizzes during the course. This is in addition to the mid-sem tests. The mid-sem tests are usually the days when you will find the hostel atmosphere highly charged.
Students burn the midnight oil and are seen scampering around to get doubts cleared or questions answered by the fundus of the class. All this is in addition to assignments, take home tests and the weird end sem exams where profs pride in giving timeless exams, take home exams, or exams where the question paper is given to the students a day before the actual test. You will have to work the problems out before coming to the test. And due to competition, not much gets shared.
Thermodynamics - ah! I remember - this is a course during the first couple of semesters and (not sure if it is mandatory for Chemca) but not a useful course for students in my program. We had to go thru it and the profs usually rush thru the syllabus. There were usually 100 students in a class and the prof cannot provide individual attention.
Assignments were evaluated by the Tutorial assistants and sometimes even the test papers. Problems were also solved by these guys in the class once a week. The prof would only teach. The objective for us would be to scrape thru - and if lucky or really good - to get a good grade.The system at IITK is very unforgiving. And it can take a toll on the students who are either weak or who do not work hard. And professors are also known to hand out F-ka without getting affected by student sentiments.Thought in all these years, things would have changed. No - it does not seem to have.
____________________
batataburger posted Re:
Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
: IIT Kanpur is also famous for their quizzes and tests - unlike in IIT Madras (and maybe other IITs) IIT Kanpur profs take snap quizzes and surprise quizzes, regular quizzes during the course. This is in addition to the mid-sem tests. The mid-sem tests are usually the days when you will find the hostel atmosphere highly charged. Students burn the midnight oil and are seen scampering around to get doubts cleared or questions answered by the fundus of the class.Surprise quizes, assignments and mid-sems are good as the grading gets distributed and doing badly in any particular mid-sem or quizes doesn't hurt to the final grades for the semester.
ReplyReport Abuse
lucent posted
Re: [drop the K] Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
I agree that the grading system at IITs needs an overhaul.
On one extreme, you have elite Asian schools where teachers set their own expectations and take pride in discrimination (as in separating the class into different grade buckets as finely as possible). Some even adopt a sadist attitude: “To get a B (average grade) in my class, you have to be really, really good.” Once a student drops the ball, there is little incentive to improve as the system is very unforgiving.
On the other extreme, you have elite American schools where administrators react to student expectations and encourage grade inflation. Many teachers view grading as a popularity contest – the more As and A+s you dole out, the better your ratings will be. Students have little incentive to perform. (See a href= "http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i30/30b02401.htm"Grade Inflation: It's Time to Face the Facts/a, by Harvey C. Mansfield, Professor, Harvard University)
Common sense suggests that there should be a happy middle – a system where grades faithfully reflect the student’s standing, but in a manner that isn’t cruel or dehumanizing. Another alternative is to not release the grades to external parties (employers, graduate schools) and rely on a three-tier system (Divisions I, II and III). Regardless of what the system is, it should motivate the students to perform throughout their time in college.
Other comments:
1. Drop the K. All IITs (at least the original ones: KGP, B, M, D & K) have their share of sadist profs, tough courses, and tough tests. Nothing unique about K. :)
2. What gave you the idea that being on AP is humiliation for many students? I am sure there are a few who get depressed, but most get used to it. Some even celebrate it. Many underperformers (five and six pointers) become successful in life. They often redeem themselves at IIMs or US schools and take up highflying jobs. Some nine pointers on the other hand continue to slog through their careers and become cogs in a wheel.
3. It is unusual to fail a course thrice. If it is a sadist prof, the entire class underperforms and many fail. However, if one person is failing multiple times, there is something wrong with his approach.
4. As for people committing suicides, it would be interesting to find out how many of them were from reserved categories. Sometimes those outliers can distort the numbers. Nevertheless, one has to realize that no system is perfect, and there will always be people who buckle under pressure.
Ray-Barone posted
Re: [drop the K] Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
I agree - heard of horror stories at IITM Electrical dept. as well.But in general I found IITM to be much more relaxed than IITK. Also, the grading of S (10),A (9),B (8),C (7),D (6),E (5),U really helped reduce the stress. Especially if you aim at more than 9/10.: 1. Drop the K. All IITs (at least the original ones: KGP, B, M, D & K) have their share of sadist profs, tough courses, and tough tests. Nothing unique about K. :)Not that IITK is unique - just that in my experience, IITK has a horrible academic env. It can do only two extremes - motivaate to a very big high - or can kill any aspiration of learning.And definitely, IITK is not a place where you can enjoy your education. Too much stress. Maybe this bit is true of all IITs.:
2. What gave you the idea that being on AP is humiliation for many students? I am sure there are a few who get depressed, but most get used to it. Some even celebrate it. Many underperformers (five and six pointers) become successful in life. They often redeem themselves at IIMs or US schools and take up highflying jobs. Some nine pointers on the other hand continue to slog through their careers and become cogs in a wheel. Oh - guys who enjoyed AP were those who had given up. Those who aspired for higher education, used to get overly stressed up - and AP would also mean an additional semester or two. MAkes it worse.: 3. It is unusual to fail a course thrice. If it is a sadist prof, the entire class underperforms and many fail. However, if one person is failing multiple times, there is something wrong with his approach. I agree. Not sure about the quota part - I have know one guy who was not from quota but who failed in Operations Research (of all papers) many many times before he finally cleared it because it was handled by a different prof. :): 4. As for people committing suicides, it would be interesting to find out how many of them were from reserved categories. Sometimes those outliers can distort the numbers. Nevertheless, one has to realize that no system is perfect, and there will always be people who buckle under pressure. The cases I know - none were from reserved category.
batataburger posted
Re: [drop the K] Stress leads to student suicide? on 5 yrs ago
:I agree that the grading system at IITs needs an overhaul. On one extreme, you have elite Asian schools where teachers set their own expectations and take pride in discrimination (as in separating the class into different grade buckets as finely as possible). Some even adopt a sadist attitude: “To get a B (average grade) in my class, you have to be really, really good.” Once a student drops the ball, there is little incentive to improve as the system is very unforgiving.At least in the Indian educational settings you see two kinds of teachers. One who test students for what they don't or may not know, by trying to give toughest problems and then those who test students for what they are suppose to know. It is the latter approach that creates healthy academic environment. : 4. As for people committing suicides, it would be interesting to find out how many of them were from reserved categories. Sometimes those outliers can distort the numbers. Nevertheless, one has to realize that no system is perfect, and there will always be people who buckle under pressure. *Laughing*. A person's ability to withstand setbacks/failures has very little to do with their caste. Sucide and sucide attempts on IIT campus or any other elite campuses, are known to happen almost every year. I am sure even on lesser campuses they happen, however it is easier to see why after getting selected to an elite institute, a failure can break self esteem leading to sucide or attempts.
