Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 23:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
Is public humiliation needed to put a student back on track?
Also, the IIT campuses need better counseling services.
Indira
------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:23:03 +1000
Conversation: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
In a recent article, an IIM Professor had concluded that, for “one really good and committed faculty member in IITs an IIMs we had atleast three hanging on to a job”. While IITs filter 5000 students out of 300000 aspirants through the JEE each year, what about the quality of faculty members ? People get into the system as Asst Lecturers and stay in the system and become the system for life, whether they perform in their jobs or not. Most do their PhDs and become academics from day one with nil field experience and we cannot blame the students for not beig inspired by such faculty. Some claim there is some form of appraisal system in some of the IITs, which makes me wonder. Faculty need a system where there is a 360 degree feed back that will determine if they should continue as faculty or not. Apppraisal of faculty members should come from the very students they teach and not their coolleagues. Will these very faculty members who threaten students with a “F” grade face up to such scrutiny the the very students
I did my civil engineering too at IITM, way back in the sixties. I can remember three faculty members who were extraordinary teachers and no one even missed their classes. In fact there was a rush to get there early to sit in front row. The rest were not teachers at all just public servants.
In my fourth year, I was threatened by a faculty member in soil mechanics at IITM. He ridiculed me in public in soil mechanics class for not knowing “the simple diifference between density and specific gravity” and gave me a
zero for my lab work. I challenged him to explain the difference himself. He fumbled and failed and the entire class laughed at him and the next thing I knew, he said “Get out of my class. I will make sure you repeat the fourth year”. Now that was a threat I was not going to take lying down. I was not going to allow him to fail me and then commit suicide was I ?
The rest is history as the entire class made me pen a statement of the event as it took place and every one signed as witnesses. I was asked by HOD Prof Sankaran, who was also a Hostel warden to his house for tea the following day. He promised me that he would take necessary action on the concerned staff member and told me that I should go and study for my final exams and that no body was going to fail me, as the HOD himself was going to correct the final exam papers. I got an A in my final exam.
The next week the concerned staff member was made to come and apologise to the entire class but not for just the episode with me. The man even cried asking for forgiveness. A few of us proved to the HOD that he had tampered with our grades for the whole year. I was the one who realised that having got an “S” grade for every lab report my mid term report showed a “B” grade as the average, which we assumed as a mistake made by the academic section staff. We took the matter to our favourite faculty member who investigated
and established that this had been done not just to me but 14 of my classmates. If this could happpen in 1969 the situation is probably much worse now considering IITs have become such pressure cookers with faculty being menaces, leading to so many suicides at IITs.
Perhaps the faculty member who teaches a subject should not be allowed to mark exam papers. Education should be fun.
I can understand why Civil engg students at IITs cannot be bothered about civil engg, because they know in their hearts the minute they walk out of the IIT Campus with a B Tech degree they will be switching to finance or software industry. It was never my intention to practice as a Civil engg that I did not choose but was give to me based on my JEE entrance rank. I switched to Acoustics & Industrial Noise control as I loved physics and Acoustics as was taught by Prof Koteeswar Rao of the maths dept.
I also believe that Faculty in IITs should get a transfer every three years to another IIT so that they do not get bored teaching the same stuff year after year in the same class rooms on the same campus. Imagine a life where a faculty member spends 30 years on one campus teaching and living in one house.
Should IIT Alumni not seek a special commission to look into these suicides at IITs or is life so cheap that we carry on regardless ? If my count is correct the Umang Group of IIT alumni has recorded as many as seven suicides in a short span of two years. I do not believe any student who makes iit through JEE does not have the brains to pass the B tech. The reasons lie elsewhere
Rambo
-------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:40:38 +0530
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
A prof who sends a list of students who are likely to get an 'F' to the whole class is an idiot. He is an idiot who does not recognise that each of these kids will be formidable competiton if he he/she are faced with the unfortunate situation of competing one on one against any of them.
A former director of IITM, once on visit to my house told my father, less than 25% of the faculty would get through JEE and less than 50% would get through GATE.
On the other side is the pressure that parents bring on their young impressionable kids. The parents build up some vague "egos" and "status in the society" issues around the grades kids get. They should be ashamed of not standing by their kids when the kids can do with help. Who else is supposed to relieve stress and give support if not the parents?. B.Tech from IIT is no B.Com from the college in the next street.
We used to say - it is more difficult to get a second class than getting past JEE in our days in IITM, when we had absolute grading.
Most of us came from not very rich families and valued the education.
Yet, bad teaching is a realty - in IIT and everywhere. It is not easy to inspire a class of guys who are so bright - unless the faculty is passionate about his subject and has good communication skills. I still must have a copy of a report we produced as students in 1976 to explain what is great teaching according to the students. Of course I ran into trouble with my HOD then.
Such a waste. Terrible waste.
Ramanan ( LATE) , B.Tech 76
---------------------------------------
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
Dear Ramanan and Rambo (and others),
It was real nice reading your heartfelt comments on the IITK suicide. Like most people, I also would not wish to see suicides in any campus or for that matter in any place/situation.
One common thread in most discussions in this forum on any topic concerning IIT's is that everbody's model of what IIT(M) is the natural one -- the one that existed during their time at IIT(M). However, I must point out that IIT's are not static by any stretch of imagination. The student body changes, the curriculum changes, the rules of the game changes and so on. This was one of the things that hit me when I returned to this campus almost a decade after graduation as a faculty member.
The point I wish to make is that your vision about what IIT is about may have very little to do with the ground reality.
At this point, it is tempting to attempt to nitpick at your various comments. Instead of this, I wish to finish this email with just one comment: In my experience, it is much harder to fail a course at IITM than to get the highest grade (of course, the grading system has changed since your time as well as mine). I can't comment about IITK.
I do not find the time the participate in several of the debates that take place in this group but I nevertheless do try to follow them. Keep it up folks.
Suresh Govindarajan
Class of 1986 & and a non-German IITM faculty member:-)
-------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:02:30 +1000
Conversation: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
Suresh
One would have expected IITs to change for the better. We should have built on what we already had and not screw them up.
A five year course suddenly became a four year course. Wonder which politician made that decision.
Then we had changes allowing JEE to be taken in several languages.
This alone could be the reason why so many suicides are taking place especially up north. Imagine students who never studied English sitting in classes taught in English.
How Pathetic is a system that gives admission to SC and ST students and makes them all study one extra year and making them untouchable on campus in an indirect sort of way.
Upnorth there is a specific name for these poor students from Sc and ST quotas to be treated inferior in class by the merit students. These students have pride too and have feelings too do they not ?
Suresh 30% of the Faculty in IITs are of good standard the rest are a waste of time. With reservations I believe even the good faculty wll quit in disgust .
In conclusion the ground reality is that IITs are screwed up and dancing to the tunes of bureaucrats in HRD ministy made up of fellows who could not make it into IITs and IIMs and like to destroy them. Well these are the foolS guiding the HRD minister, who is so old that he may not remember what he had for breakfast leave alone rememBer the difference between IIT and IIM
Any way it was nice to hear from you after such a long long time . Where have you been hiding mate?
Rambo
---------------
Conversation: My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
I do not see why we need to ape other university systems, we should create our own model. All Central Govt servants are in transferrable jobs. Why should faculty at IITs not be transferred to other IITs instead of stagnating and letting down roots in their offices ?
I cannot believe that faculty members get rotated. Imagine a Structures professor teaching hydraulics or soil mechanics. I can now see how the system has been eroded where any faculty can teach any subject. Tell me in which university you see this process?
Education is not about cramming some class notes and regurgitating as happens in IITs. The entire focus of faculty is on Grades and not making education interesting and fun and imparting knowledge.
Ofcourse in the fisrt 15 years IITs got students who had the aptitude and wanted to do engineering studies. Today IITs have become a national obsession and seen as a passport to success.
No education system should drive any student to suicide. I do read of many teen suicides in Australia yet the cause has never been one of not being able to cope with studies.
I envy the system in Uniiversity of Technology where my son breezed through a double degree in Business and Law.
Every lecture was conducted twice a day. One in the morning and one at night and students could attend either. No attendance taken and faculty hardly knew the students as even students who majored in other subjects like humanities could choose subjects as long as they met the pre requisites.
Assignments were quite often multiple choice questions done via the uniiversity web site on the internet and essays were also submitted as attachments by emails.
The question is what can alumni do to counsel such students who are driven to extremes ?. I do not believe this can be an internal process as students willl not come forward with their problems.
Can some one explain why any faculty member has to circulate a list of students who might get an 'F' Grade .
Sorry who ever this Gupta at IITK is is a MORON and should not be teaching
Students get burnt and students also get scarred for life by mindless bodies posing as faculty members. A teacher needs compassion and patience and should know that every student is different.
But then faculty at IITs are not trained in education are they. Any one with a PhD can apply and become a faculty member.
One can be extremely smart academically but that does not mean they can teach. Only a small percentage of people know what teaching is all about.
Even to this day I remember wiith Joy the English classes conducted by Prof Krishnamurthy. He was a teacher for sure.
Rambo
---------------------------
Here is a note from a recent Graduate from IIITK
Name with held by request
..........................................
Eye opening article.
As I recollect my IIT K days, there used to be competition among some profs to give "F" grades. Many Profs were sadists, who themselves could not achieve anything in life. Sometimes I feel I can be a better teacher with 14 years of Industry exp than these fresh PHDS , but system doesn't allow B.Techs to be Prof.
Students also feel (By the way I also felt that way) - "IIT is the only thing in the world, if I don't pass , Sun will stop shining". They also need to be told that Aircraft was invented by Cycle Mechanics.
Best Regards
---------------------------------------
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
The number of SC/ST students who spend N (>4) years has definitely come down since the preparatory course was started. The reason is simple -- this course bridges the gap and prepares them to complete the B.Tech. programme in the stipulated 4 years (it is five if you include the one-year preparatory course). During the duration of the course, the students are provided boarding and lodging. When I taught the course, I found that about 80% of the students are sincere and work hard and do benefit from the one-year stint. As far as I can see, there is no stigma attached to this course and it is taught by regular IITM faculty. I doubt it if Vivekananda or Loyola college would be interested in teaching these students. I also believe that IIT faculty are better qualified to introduce them to the IIT system.
Dear Rambo, your model will lead to students taking a huge number of years to complete their degree, if they get one at all.
Suresh, IITM
-------------------------------
Suresh, Here is a challenge.
Get a ST/SC Quota student to share his views on his experience at IITM as a quota student
The poor Quota student was not that stupid not to know there was a mess functioning during holidays. His scholarship would not pay for the mess bill during summer vacation and he was penniless. (This is from Up North and not IITM )
How would you know if there is stigma attached or not if you are not one of them ?
One student wrote that IIT is a terrible place as your own classmates look at you and treat you differently and you feel so insulted and left out. I can understand some arrogant fellows who got in through merit treating quota students badly. These are things you will never get to know as a faculty member ever.
How about enlightening some of us. Please explain how Sc and ST students get selected to do B Tech Degree What is the Process ? What do you teach these students in the extra year precisely ?
Rambo
------------------------
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
I have an anecdote from my friend who was former director of CFTRI (Dr. H. A. B. Parpia) in Mysore. He would even go one record. His son was a student in IIT Kanpur. His roommate was an SC who got admission into IIT thanks to quota. It seems he used to get up late, was never regular in attending classes and did not study all that hard. When my friend’s son suggested that he should change his studying habits and should not waste his time or lose years failing. He was told that he is having a nice time in the college and he does not mind losing few years. After all he said he was getting full scholarship and did not have to worry about money. He also told his friend that he would not doubt clear his studies and would go to work. In his case he may take more years, but soon after taking job in some government department he would be promoted fast and despite poor grades he would still become his boss because of reservation. Therefore he does not have to work hard at all.
Well if this was narrated by some one other than Dr. Parpia, I would have not believed it. Dr. Parpia is spending all his time even at the ripe old age of 84 helping the slum children. I know he does not have any prejudice either.
I do not want to create an impression that all quota students are like the one described above. But this does show how the system can spoil even the best of us when there is non merit considerations are adopted to select people for jobs or for promotion.
Bhamy Shenoy
__._,_.___
Bhamy, I believe every word.
When you give some one something he does not deserve and has not earned, could you expect anything different ?.
The Australian govt is desperately trying to make amends with the aboriginies by handing out Billions of dollars every year purely out of guilt.
What do the aboriginies do ? Spend all the money they get each week in the pub drinking and live in slums and shanty towns. One wold assume that they will use the money for education and assets but they do not want the western way of life they claim. Why because they are hand outs that they do not deserve. Politicians don’t care either as all they want is to be seen to be politically correct as is happening now with HRD pushing for 49% reservation.
What a sad state of affairs in an India that is expected to become a Super Power.
If the IT sector escaped the clutches of Politicians of the Licence Raj to enrich the nation there has to be a way out for Higher education too.
What if the 49% of merit students who are denied admission that belongs to them get picked up by the private sector and sent abroad for education expenses paid with a contract to work for the sponsor for a minimum of five years ? This is just a what If ?
It is possible for a country like Australia very short on population and has an aging population may even welcome the cream of India with the promise of a citizen ship.
No one in their right mind will say no to such an offer
Rambo
-----------------
Not all faculty members at Sydney University were PHD's
Tall Building structures was taught by the Chief Engineer of a leading Construction company Civil and Civic. It was the most popular course as theman was incharge of a 45 story Qantas Building & Regent Hotel in the city.
Hey I abandoned my PhD because I was head hunted with an offer that I could not refuse. Had I completed my PhD I would be eligible to become a faculty at IITM but trust me I would have been hopeless. Not every one is good at teaching and that is the point I am trying to make. Also PhDs are limited to a specific topic that has been chosen and does not make a PhD a true all round teacher of many subjects.
IITs would be much better off if there were 50% visiting Professors with field experience in the industry
Rambo
------------------
Dear Rambo,
The one suicide that occurred during my IIT years (75-79) in my hostel was that of a Brahmin boy from Bangalore. I am guessing there was some pressure to perform better, or fear of failure in tough competition. Of course his parents and sisters were devastated by the loss of their precious only son/brother, from what my wife who knew the family told me later.
Suicides by the way are not unheard of (a few occur almost every year) in highly competitive places like MIT in the US. IIMs on the other hand are relatively stress-free and not so rigorous as in hard engineering or science course from what some of my IITian classmates who had gone to IIMs told me. So I am not surprised that there is less (if any) occurrence of suicides in those institutions.
There were so few reserved quota students (only about six in my hostel) during those years. They were generally cohesive (amongst themselves, like all other student groups), yet I found them friendly and sociable over the years. I suspect they had endured so much before they even entered IIT that they had already developed much thicker skin than you or me.
Nevertheless, I predict that they will not be willing to share their true feelings on this forum or even with you or me in private until there is some gradual build up of trust / faith.
They have been slighted or disparaged so much in this forum that if any of them ever became a member of this group, they would have left long ago or will keep quiet for a long time to come until the tone of discourse here turns around drastically to express more broadly felt and genuine appreciation for their travails. (Looking at the number of our outspoken contributors who are yet to sign the apology on the url provided again recently by Daljit Singh gives some indication that it is not going to happen any time soon.)
BTW, I did recall immediately the organized beggars scenes from Pokiri when I read your other mail. I laughed my head off when watching this movie a month or two ago. Unlike that imaginary organization with a single focus, our IITM alumni are such a diverse group, in age, in location, in branch, in language, in caste, and in so many qualitites except for intelligence, that it is almost impossible for us to agree on any single goal political or otherwise. However, all of us of course care about our alma mater and would like to reminisce and may be debate endlessly about their own ideas.
Regards,
Dhinakar Kompala
--------------------------
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Prof. P. Sriram wrote:
----------------------------
Is public humiliation needed to put a student back on track?
Also, the IIT campuses need better counseling services.
Indira
------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:23:03 +1000
Conversation: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
In a recent article, an IIM Professor had concluded that, for “one really good and committed faculty member in IITs an IIMs we had atleast three hanging on to a job”. While IITs filter 5000 students out of 300000 aspirants through the JEE each year, what about the quality of faculty members ? People get into the system as Asst Lecturers and stay in the system and become the system for life, whether they perform in their jobs or not. Most do their PhDs and become academics from day one with nil field experience and we cannot blame the students for not beig inspired by such faculty. Some claim there is some form of appraisal system in some of the IITs, which makes me wonder. Faculty need a system where there is a 360 degree feed back that will determine if they should continue as faculty or not. Apppraisal of faculty members should come from the very students they teach and not their coolleagues. Will these very faculty members who threaten students with a “F” grade face up to such scrutiny the the very students
I did my civil engineering too at IITM, way back in the sixties. I can remember three faculty members who were extraordinary teachers and no one even missed their classes. In fact there was a rush to get there early to sit in front row. The rest were not teachers at all just public servants.
In my fourth year, I was threatened by a faculty member in soil mechanics at IITM. He ridiculed me in public in soil mechanics class for not knowing “the simple diifference between density and specific gravity” and gave me a
zero for my lab work. I challenged him to explain the difference himself. He fumbled and failed and the entire class laughed at him and the next thing I knew, he said “Get out of my class. I will make sure you repeat the fourth year”. Now that was a threat I was not going to take lying down. I was not going to allow him to fail me and then commit suicide was I ?
The rest is history as the entire class made me pen a statement of the event as it took place and every one signed as witnesses. I was asked by HOD Prof Sankaran, who was also a Hostel warden to his house for tea the following day. He promised me that he would take necessary action on the concerned staff member and told me that I should go and study for my final exams and that no body was going to fail me, as the HOD himself was going to correct the final exam papers. I got an A in my final exam.
The next week the concerned staff member was made to come and apologise to the entire class but not for just the episode with me. The man even cried asking for forgiveness. A few of us proved to the HOD that he had tampered with our grades for the whole year. I was the one who realised that having got an “S” grade for every lab report my mid term report showed a “B” grade as the average, which we assumed as a mistake made by the academic section staff. We took the matter to our favourite faculty member who investigated
and established that this had been done not just to me but 14 of my classmates. If this could happpen in 1969 the situation is probably much worse now considering IITs have become such pressure cookers with faculty being menaces, leading to so many suicides at IITs.
Perhaps the faculty member who teaches a subject should not be allowed to mark exam papers. Education should be fun.
I can understand why Civil engg students at IITs cannot be bothered about civil engg, because they know in their hearts the minute they walk out of the IIT Campus with a B Tech degree they will be switching to finance or software industry. It was never my intention to practice as a Civil engg that I did not choose but was give to me based on my JEE entrance rank. I switched to Acoustics & Industrial Noise control as I loved physics and Acoustics as was taught by Prof Koteeswar Rao of the maths dept.
I also believe that Faculty in IITs should get a transfer every three years to another IIT so that they do not get bored teaching the same stuff year after year in the same class rooms on the same campus. Imagine a life where a faculty member spends 30 years on one campus teaching and living in one house.
Should IIT Alumni not seek a special commission to look into these suicides at IITs or is life so cheap that we carry on regardless ? If my count is correct the Umang Group of IIT alumni has recorded as many as seven suicides in a short span of two years. I do not believe any student who makes iit through JEE does not have the brains to pass the B tech. The reasons lie elsewhere
Rambo
-------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:40:38 +0530
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
A prof who sends a list of students who are likely to get an 'F' to the whole class is an idiot. He is an idiot who does not recognise that each of these kids will be formidable competiton if he he/she are faced with the unfortunate situation of competing one on one against any of them.
A former director of IITM, once on visit to my house told my father, less than 25% of the faculty would get through JEE and less than 50% would get through GATE.
On the other side is the pressure that parents bring on their young impressionable kids. The parents build up some vague "egos" and "status in the society" issues around the grades kids get. They should be ashamed of not standing by their kids when the kids can do with help. Who else is supposed to relieve stress and give support if not the parents?. B.Tech from IIT is no B.Com from the college in the next street.
We used to say - it is more difficult to get a second class than getting past JEE in our days in IITM, when we had absolute grading.
Most of us came from not very rich families and valued the education.
Yet, bad teaching is a realty - in IIT and everywhere. It is not easy to inspire a class of guys who are so bright - unless the faculty is passionate about his subject and has good communication skills. I still must have a copy of a report we produced as students in 1976 to explain what is great teaching according to the students. Of course I ran into trouble with my HOD then.
Such a waste. Terrible waste.
Ramanan ( LATE) , B.Tech 76
---------------------------------------
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
Dear Ramanan and Rambo (and others),
It was real nice reading your heartfelt comments on the IITK suicide. Like most people, I also would not wish to see suicides in any campus or for that matter in any place/situation.
One common thread in most discussions in this forum on any topic concerning IIT's is that everbody's model of what IIT(M) is the natural one -- the one that existed during their time at IIT(M). However, I must point out that IIT's are not static by any stretch of imagination. The student body changes, the curriculum changes, the rules of the game changes and so on. This was one of the things that hit me when I returned to this campus almost a decade after graduation as a faculty member.
The point I wish to make is that your vision about what IIT is about may have very little to do with the ground reality.
At this point, it is tempting to attempt to nitpick at your various comments. Instead of this, I wish to finish this email with just one comment: In my experience, it is much harder to fail a course at IITM than to get the highest grade (of course, the grading system has changed since your time as well as mine). I can't comment about IITK.
I do not find the time the participate in several of the debates that take place in this group but I nevertheless do try to follow them. Keep it up folks.
Suresh Govindarajan
Class of 1986 & and a non-German IITM faculty member:-)
-------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:02:30 +1000
Conversation: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
Suresh
One would have expected IITs to change for the better. We should have built on what we already had and not screw them up.
A five year course suddenly became a four year course. Wonder which politician made that decision.
Then we had changes allowing JEE to be taken in several languages.
This alone could be the reason why so many suicides are taking place especially up north. Imagine students who never studied English sitting in classes taught in English.
How Pathetic is a system that gives admission to SC and ST students and makes them all study one extra year and making them untouchable on campus in an indirect sort of way.
Upnorth there is a specific name for these poor students from Sc and ST quotas to be treated inferior in class by the merit students. These students have pride too and have feelings too do they not ?
Suresh 30% of the Faculty in IITs are of good standard the rest are a waste of time. With reservations I believe even the good faculty wll quit in disgust .
In conclusion the ground reality is that IITs are screwed up and dancing to the tunes of bureaucrats in HRD ministy made up of fellows who could not make it into IITs and IIMs and like to destroy them. Well these are the foolS guiding the HRD minister, who is so old that he may not remember what he had for breakfast leave alone rememBer the difference between IIT and IIM
Any way it was nice to hear from you after such a long long time . Where have you been hiding mate?
Rambo
---------------
Conversation: My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
I do not see why we need to ape other university systems, we should create our own model. All Central Govt servants are in transferrable jobs. Why should faculty at IITs not be transferred to other IITs instead of stagnating and letting down roots in their offices ?
I cannot believe that faculty members get rotated. Imagine a Structures professor teaching hydraulics or soil mechanics. I can now see how the system has been eroded where any faculty can teach any subject. Tell me in which university you see this process?
Education is not about cramming some class notes and regurgitating as happens in IITs. The entire focus of faculty is on Grades and not making education interesting and fun and imparting knowledge.
Ofcourse in the fisrt 15 years IITs got students who had the aptitude and wanted to do engineering studies. Today IITs have become a national obsession and seen as a passport to success.
No education system should drive any student to suicide. I do read of many teen suicides in Australia yet the cause has never been one of not being able to cope with studies.
I envy the system in Uniiversity of Technology where my son breezed through a double degree in Business and Law.
Every lecture was conducted twice a day. One in the morning and one at night and students could attend either. No attendance taken and faculty hardly knew the students as even students who majored in other subjects like humanities could choose subjects as long as they met the pre requisites.
Assignments were quite often multiple choice questions done via the uniiversity web site on the internet and essays were also submitted as attachments by emails.
The question is what can alumni do to counsel such students who are driven to extremes ?. I do not believe this can be an internal process as students willl not come forward with their problems.
Can some one explain why any faculty member has to circulate a list of students who might get an 'F' Grade .
Sorry who ever this Gupta at IITK is is a MORON and should not be teaching
Students get burnt and students also get scarred for life by mindless bodies posing as faculty members. A teacher needs compassion and patience and should know that every student is different.
But then faculty at IITs are not trained in education are they. Any one with a PhD can apply and become a faculty member.
One can be extremely smart academically but that does not mean they can teach. Only a small percentage of people know what teaching is all about.
Even to this day I remember wiith Joy the English classes conducted by Prof Krishnamurthy. He was a teacher for sure.
Rambo
---------------------------
Here is a note from a recent Graduate from IIITK
Name with held by request
..........................................
Eye opening article.
As I recollect my IIT K days, there used to be competition among some profs to give "F" grades. Many Profs were sadists, who themselves could not achieve anything in life. Sometimes I feel I can be a better teacher with 14 years of Industry exp than these fresh PHDS , but system doesn't allow B.Techs to be Prof.
Students also feel (By the way I also felt that way) - "IIT is the only thing in the world, if I don't pass , Sun will stop shining". They also need to be told that Aircraft was invented by Cycle Mechanics.
Best Regards
---------------------------------------
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
The number of SC/ST students who spend N (>4) years has definitely come down since the preparatory course was started. The reason is simple -- this course bridges the gap and prepares them to complete the B.Tech. programme in the stipulated 4 years (it is five if you include the one-year preparatory course). During the duration of the course, the students are provided boarding and lodging. When I taught the course, I found that about 80% of the students are sincere and work hard and do benefit from the one-year stint. As far as I can see, there is no stigma attached to this course and it is taught by regular IITM faculty. I doubt it if Vivekananda or Loyola college would be interested in teaching these students. I also believe that IIT faculty are better qualified to introduce them to the IIT system.
Dear Rambo, your model will lead to students taking a huge number of years to complete their degree, if they get one at all.
Suresh, IITM
-------------------------------
Suresh, Here is a challenge.
Get a ST/SC Quota student to share his views on his experience at IITM as a quota student
The poor Quota student was not that stupid not to know there was a mess functioning during holidays. His scholarship would not pay for the mess bill during summer vacation and he was penniless. (This is from Up North and not IITM )
How would you know if there is stigma attached or not if you are not one of them ?
One student wrote that IIT is a terrible place as your own classmates look at you and treat you differently and you feel so insulted and left out. I can understand some arrogant fellows who got in through merit treating quota students badly. These are things you will never get to know as a faculty member ever.
How about enlightening some of us. Please explain how Sc and ST students get selected to do B Tech Degree What is the Process ? What do you teach these students in the extra year precisely ?
Rambo
------------------------
Subject: 'My list didn't lead to IIT suicide'
I have an anecdote from my friend who was former director of CFTRI (Dr. H. A. B. Parpia) in Mysore. He would even go one record. His son was a student in IIT Kanpur. His roommate was an SC who got admission into IIT thanks to quota. It seems he used to get up late, was never regular in attending classes and did not study all that hard. When my friend’s son suggested that he should change his studying habits and should not waste his time or lose years failing. He was told that he is having a nice time in the college and he does not mind losing few years. After all he said he was getting full scholarship and did not have to worry about money. He also told his friend that he would not doubt clear his studies and would go to work. In his case he may take more years, but soon after taking job in some government department he would be promoted fast and despite poor grades he would still become his boss because of reservation. Therefore he does not have to work hard at all.
Well if this was narrated by some one other than Dr. Parpia, I would have not believed it. Dr. Parpia is spending all his time even at the ripe old age of 84 helping the slum children. I know he does not have any prejudice either.
I do not want to create an impression that all quota students are like the one described above. But this does show how the system can spoil even the best of us when there is non merit considerations are adopted to select people for jobs or for promotion.
Bhamy Shenoy
__._,_.___
Bhamy, I believe every word.
When you give some one something he does not deserve and has not earned, could you expect anything different ?.
The Australian govt is desperately trying to make amends with the aboriginies by handing out Billions of dollars every year purely out of guilt.
What do the aboriginies do ? Spend all the money they get each week in the pub drinking and live in slums and shanty towns. One wold assume that they will use the money for education and assets but they do not want the western way of life they claim. Why because they are hand outs that they do not deserve. Politicians don’t care either as all they want is to be seen to be politically correct as is happening now with HRD pushing for 49% reservation.
What a sad state of affairs in an India that is expected to become a Super Power.
If the IT sector escaped the clutches of Politicians of the Licence Raj to enrich the nation there has to be a way out for Higher education too.
What if the 49% of merit students who are denied admission that belongs to them get picked up by the private sector and sent abroad for education expenses paid with a contract to work for the sponsor for a minimum of five years ? This is just a what If ?
It is possible for a country like Australia very short on population and has an aging population may even welcome the cream of India with the promise of a citizen ship.
No one in their right mind will say no to such an offer
Rambo
-----------------
Not all faculty members at Sydney University were PHD's
Tall Building structures was taught by the Chief Engineer of a leading Construction company Civil and Civic. It was the most popular course as theman was incharge of a 45 story Qantas Building & Regent Hotel in the city.
Hey I abandoned my PhD because I was head hunted with an offer that I could not refuse. Had I completed my PhD I would be eligible to become a faculty at IITM but trust me I would have been hopeless. Not every one is good at teaching and that is the point I am trying to make. Also PhDs are limited to a specific topic that has been chosen and does not make a PhD a true all round teacher of many subjects.
IITs would be much better off if there were 50% visiting Professors with field experience in the industry
Rambo
------------------
Dear Rambo,
The one suicide that occurred during my IIT years (75-79) in my hostel was that of a Brahmin boy from Bangalore. I am guessing there was some pressure to perform better, or fear of failure in tough competition. Of course his parents and sisters were devastated by the loss of their precious only son/brother, from what my wife who knew the family told me later.
Suicides by the way are not unheard of (a few occur almost every year) in highly competitive places like MIT in the US. IIMs on the other hand are relatively stress-free and not so rigorous as in hard engineering or science course from what some of my IITian classmates who had gone to IIMs told me. So I am not surprised that there is less (if any) occurrence of suicides in those institutions.
There were so few reserved quota students (only about six in my hostel) during those years. They were generally cohesive (amongst themselves, like all other student groups), yet I found them friendly and sociable over the years. I suspect they had endured so much before they even entered IIT that they had already developed much thicker skin than you or me.
Nevertheless, I predict that they will not be willing to share their true feelings on this forum or even with you or me in private until there is some gradual build up of trust / faith.
They have been slighted or disparaged so much in this forum that if any of them ever became a member of this group, they would have left long ago or will keep quiet for a long time to come until the tone of discourse here turns around drastically to express more broadly felt and genuine appreciation for their travails. (Looking at the number of our outspoken contributors who are yet to sign the apology on the url provided again recently by Daljit Singh gives some indication that it is not going to happen any time soon.)
BTW, I did recall immediately the organized beggars scenes from Pokiri when I read your other mail. I laughed my head off when watching this movie a month or two ago. Unlike that imaginary organization with a single focus, our IITM alumni are such a diverse group, in age, in location, in branch, in language, in caste, and in so many qualitites except for intelligence, that it is almost impossible for us to agree on any single goal political or otherwise. However, all of us of course care about our alma mater and would like to reminisce and may be debate endlessly about their own ideas.
Regards,
Dhinakar Kompala
--------------------------
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Prof. P. Sriram wrote:
ok, this is the factual current position at iitm (iitd will be similar). the b tech program is rated for 4 years/8 semesters and 165 credits - so the mean rate should be about 21 credits per semester. in order to stay inSriram
the program, students are required to maintain a minimum rate of 14 credits per semester (this is more liberal than dropping two subjects). extra allowance is made for the first year of the program and the credit
earning rate is reckoned only from 3rd semester onward. summer terms are not counted as semesters but one can do upto two courses (6-8 credits), so students can do courses during summer to push up the credit earning rate. note that at the minimum required rate of 14 credits per semester, the 4 year program will be stretched to 6 years. the first time the rate drops below the minimum, the student is issued a warning and put on probation (and the parents are notified) - but the student is allowed to register. the second time this happens, the student is formally struck off the rolls and not allowed to register. however, the student can appeal this decision (and submit a plan of study that will raise the credit earning rate back to the minimum required) and the student will be routinely reinstated and the senate informed of this decision. the third time the student fails to maintain the rate, the student is once again struck off the rolls and not allowed to register. this time, however, any appeal is directed to the senate (or to diro, as chairman of senate) for a case by case decision. if there are extenuating circumstances (like death of a parent, a dibilitating health condition etc), the student is allowed to continue by treating one or more semesters as non-existant; if the student is plain weak and is having a chronic problem of maintaining the required credit rate, the appeal is turned down and the student is expelled from the program. this usually happens only when the student is projected to take more than 8 or 9 years to complete the program (though we have given degrees after 9 years also). iitd procedure is similar, though it appears that parental notification is delayed in comparison to iitm. also, at iitm, students who are halfway between the required rate (for 4 year graduation) and the minimum rate (14 credits per semester) are sent a warning letter reminding them of the minimum rate required and how close they are to it - so the 'striking off the rolls' is rarely a bolt from the blue. it really takes a lot to flunk out of the program like this and the fact that we are asking students to throw away some years of thier life weighs on us. we would wish not, but about 10% of students end up on probation.
----------------------------
